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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 9, 2017 11:03:34 GMT -5
Maybe the Marlins already have a flip Castro partner lined up?
Mets Have Talked With Indians, Tigers About Trades For Second Baseman
And we hardly think Jeter is lining up these deals, and besides, he is beyond reproach, merely trying to right the sinking ship. Jeter inherited a huge problem -- what to do with Stanton, who has control over his own destiny. More likely Gary Denbo is the man lining things up, as he knows the Yankees system very well.
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Post by Dodgers GM (Rob) on Dec 9, 2017 11:47:50 GMT -5
This Stanton trade reminds me of the ARod trade. Trade $250M plus player for 2B (Soriano for ARod and Castro for Stanton) and other parts.
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Post by Phillies GM (Ron) on Dec 9, 2017 11:48:02 GMT -5
I have no idea if Hosmer will get better but, depending on the price I dont hate SD paying him. He's still young, so you're not necessarily paying for a past his prime player. They have the money. My biggest question, is Wil Myers. He's said he'd play OF. I dont know if I'd want him too though, not if he can't stay healthy. We'll see i guess. All very interesting. I think the major emphasis of Myers move to 1B by the Padres was injury prevention to try and keep his bat in the lineup. |
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Post by z - Gaz on Dec 9, 2017 11:50:06 GMT -5
Did Marlins ever claim they wanted elite players for Stanton? I mean, they agreed a deal with the Giants and they've got a barren system.
There are some excellent arms in that Yankees system so if they get a couple of those plus Castro and Frazier they'll not be too disappointed.
If they end up with one of the bad contracts, like Ellsbury, then Jeter will get ridiculed.
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Post by Phillies GM (Ron) on Dec 9, 2017 11:54:12 GMT -5
We have not seen any post mentioning Frazier (neither one) anywhere... just saying what someone told us. Though it may make some sense. Personally, we think the Yankees would be okay with sending a Frazier, and they will likely have to give up some pitching specs. Trading Florial would be a hard candy. Yeah I haven't seen any Frazier's mentioned either. If Jeter thinks he's getting Clint Frazier in this deal then he's lost his mind. Only way Clint Frazier is involved in this trade is if Miami PAYS most if not all of Stanton's contract and we know Miami is looking to pay as little of Stanton's contract as possible. I'm thinking they the MiLB players will be someone like Freicer Perez and players like that. Starting to see there potential blossom at the Low A level. Denbo knows that system inside and out. |
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 9, 2017 12:42:24 GMT -5
This Stanton trade reminds me of the ARod trade. Trade $250M plus player for 2B (Soriano for ARod and Castro for Stanton) and other parts. Not really...Soriano was a 5 WAR player when he was traded for A-Rod. Castro is a 2 WAR player in a good year. |
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 9, 2017 12:47:48 GMT -5
Did Marlins ever claim they wanted elite players for Stanton? I mean, they agreed a deal with the Giants and they've got a barren system. There are some excellent arms in that Yankees system so if they get a couple of those plus Castro and Frazier they'll not be too disappointed. If they end up with one of the bad contracts, like Ellsbury, then Jeter will get ridiculed. Until we know who those prospects are, it's too early to criticize. I just don't see the point in getting 2 years of Castro and what it is likely some meh prospects. It was always a salary dump. I'm not disputing that. But St. Louis was putting high ceiling prospects on the table, with lots of control. Giants offer wasn't great, but again lots of pieces with lots of control. I just won't at all be surprised if Castro is the headliner here. And the fact that it happened so fast tells me the Marlins just said the he'll with it, what can you give us. |
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 9, 2017 12:53:57 GMT -5
The point seems pretty obvious -- Stanton said no, and he has the no-trade option. Under these circumstances, the Marlins had to get the best deal they could. They're on the hook for only $30M now, instead of $295M. They get an MLB 2B guy they can use or flip. They get a couple of lower level specs (probably fairly interesting in their own right, as the Yankees low-levels are pretty nicely stacked). Not much more they could expect with Giancarlo calling the shots.
The Marlins did, after all, accept the offers from the Giants and Cars. Stanton said no can do, leaving Miami to shoot from the hip at a moving target.
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 9, 2017 12:54:00 GMT -5
This Stanton trade reminds me of the ARod trade. Trade $250M plus player for 2B (Soriano for ARod and Castro for Stanton) and other parts. Not really...Soriano was a 5 WAR player when he was traded for A-Rod. Castro is a 2 WAR player in a good year. Yankees trading Gary Sanchez, would be the equivalent to Soriano for A Rod. In all seriousness we've never seen anything like this before. MVP dumped because...? Jeter is TELLING you he has to be traded becauae that's what all poor ownership tells their fan bases so that they'll buy in. In reality though it's this simple. He's the MVP. Hes the star. Machado, Harper, Trout will all get the same AAS, likely more. This is what a superstar in his prime costs. And this is also just bad management and the sucker Marlins are on the receiving end again. |
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 9, 2017 12:58:53 GMT -5
Who was left for the Marlins to deal with? At least The New Yorks gave them something. They were up Deliverance Creek with a couple of gay guides. Stanton was calling the shots. Former owner put them in that situation, not Jeter.
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Post by Dodgers GM (Rob) on Dec 9, 2017 12:59:27 GMT -5
This Stanton trade reminds me of the ARod trade. Trade $250M plus player for 2B (Soriano for ARod and Castro for Stanton) and other parts. Not really...Soriano was a 5 WAR player when he was traded for A-Rod. Castro is a 2 WAR player in a good year. True on Soriano, but also felt that it was comparable since ARod was worth 9 plus WAR where Stanton is just under 7. Soriano was worth around 2 WAR after he went to the Rangers. |
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 9, 2017 13:02:23 GMT -5
The Marlins had no recourse but to take what they could get. That seems fairly clear. Why all the bullshit about Jeter? Or A-Rod and Soriano? None of that has any bearing on this situation. The entire Marlins organization was likely in on this, crunching numbers, tossing around alternatives for weeks. Combing through prospects from every team. Weighing their chances. They wanted to clear a ton money, and they had a player who wanted to leave and controlled to whom he could be traded. They accomplished their goal, given their situation.
Jeffrey Loria queered this deal, not Derek Jeter. Giancarlo Stanton merely said, "no," and the Marlins had almost no recourse.
If you can think of a viable alternative scenario, we'd like to hear it.
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Post by z - Tim on Dec 9, 2017 13:21:54 GMT -5
ARod-Soriano is a pretty good parallel here. Yes, Soriano was worth more then than Castro now, but so was Arod than Stanton, plus Rangers threw in a lot of $ into that deal too (which ARod later crewed the Yankees out of). Very similar. Both times it was a player the yanks could replace elsewhere. Soriano had a better bat than Starlin does, but the yanks had tired of Soriano’s defense enough he had a lot less value to them than his bat or WAR suggests (ie he was already rumored to be getting moved off 2B by the yanks and swapping to LF would have crushed much of his WAR for the yanks). Very very similar type deals in that way. Starlin, tho his defense is sagging, doesn’t have the same issue of being a bad fit as much, but he’s also someone they can replace through trade/internally so it works similarly in many ways. The rangers at the time had an owner with money troubles, the marlins have new owners that don’t have money troubles but have a franchise that needs reworking and a deal like Stanton’s is an impediment to that. Sometimes trades get forced, this one just seems to make a lot sense.
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 9, 2017 13:22:17 GMT -5
Jose Devers SS/NYY and Jorge Guzman SP/NNY are the two specs, plus Starlin Castro, headed toward Miami for Stanton and $30M.
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 9, 2017 13:25:08 GMT -5
They didn't have to trade him. It's that simple.
And the prospects are Jorge Guzman and Jose Devers. A SP in Low A and a 18 year old in Rookie Ball. That's awful.
In closing, because there's no point in continuing on. Guapo, you are a Yankees fan. You don't see the other side of this and that's fine, you're a fan. But Miami never had to trade him, and yes it was always going to be a salary dump but if the package wasn't right, DON'T TRADE THE MVP FOR SCRAPS!!
We keep talking about comp's, and there's never been one like this in MLB. Never. But this reminds me of the league owned New Orleans Pelicans trying to trade Chris Paul to the Lakers because...? Who knows. It was an awful deal for the Pelicans and it ONLY benefited a larger market (LA Lakers). The trade was VETO'd by the league.
I'm not saying this trade should be VETO'd. I hate that system. But this trade reeks of Jeter coming in, wiping the slate clean and telling all the fans "Hey, this is about getting us back to prosperity. This is about a rebuild."
No Captain...this is about lining your pockets. This, is about making yourself money. Oh, and Jeter also elected to pay himself $5M a year as the new Marlins owner. Keep telling yourself the Marlins HAD to trade him. They didn't...And they didn't have to gift wrap him to the Yankees either. Yankee fans, in unison. It's time to tip the ol' ball cap to Jeter again. He deserves it.
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Post by Dodgers GM (Rob) on Dec 9, 2017 13:26:31 GMT -5
ARod-Soriano is a pretty good parallel here. Yes, Soriano was worth more then than Castro now, but so was Arod than Stanton, plus Rangers threw in a lot of $ into that deal too (which ARod later crewed the Yankees out of). Very similar. Both times it was a player the yanks could replace elsewhere. Soriano had a better bat than Starlin does, but the yanks had tired of Soriano’s defense enough he had a lot less value to them than his bat or WAR suggests (ie he was already rumored to be getting moved off 2B by the yanks and swapping to LF would have crushed much of his WAR for the yanks). Very very similar type deals in that way. Starlin, tho his defense is sagging, doesn’t have the same issue of being a bad fit as much, but he’s also someone they can replace through trade/internally so it works similarly in many ways. The rangers at the time had an owner with money troubles, the marlins have new owners that don’t have money troubles but have a franchise that needs reworking and a deal like Stanton’s is an impediment to that. Sometimes trades get forced, this one just seems to make a lot sense. I like how Tim pretty much summarize what I was thinking. |
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Post by z - Tim on Dec 9, 2017 13:26:53 GMT -5
Not real$ tho. Only if Stanton doesn’t opt out, in which case Marlins are happy to be rid of the rest for only 30m. Funny thing is that this puts the yanks in same spot their were with arod’s extension where they lose a subsidy if Stanton opts out and they resign him as a FA.
Nats FO is giving high5s right now since this is a serious crimp in any yankee threat to sign Harper.
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Post by z - Tim on Dec 9, 2017 13:32:18 GMT -5
They didn't have to trade him. It's that simple. And the prospects are Jorge Guzman and Jose Devers. A SP in Low A and a 18 year old in Rookie Ball. That's awful. In closing, because there's no point in continuing on. Guapo, you are a Yankees fan. You don't see the other side of this and that's fine, you're a fan. But Miami never had to trade him, and yes it was always going to be a salary dump but if the package wasn't right, DON'T TRADE THE MVP FOR SCRAPS!! We keep talking about comp's, and there's never been one like this in MLB. Never. But this reminds me of the league owned New Orleans Pelicans trying to trade Chris Paul to the Lakers because...? Who knows. It was an awful deal for the Pelicans and it ONLY benefited a larger market (LA Lakers). The trade was VETO'd by the league. I'm not saying this trade should be VETO'd. I hate that system. But this trade reeks of Jeter coming in, wiping the slate clean and telling all the fans "Hey, this is about getting us back to prosperity. This is about a rebuild." No Captain...this is about lining your pockets. This, is about making yourself money. Oh, and Jeter also elected to pay himself $5M a year as the new Marlins owner. Keep telling yourself the Marlins HAD to trade him. They didn't...And they didn't have to gift wrap him to the Yankees either. Yankee fans, in unison. It's time to tip the ol' ball cap to Jeter again. He deserves it. Didn’t know that about jeter’s salary, but it makes sense he would get a salary. Let’s face it, that’s $5M a year to be the fall guy for real owners so they don’t smell all fishy. He’s getting paid not for FO expertise, but to take the blame. Kudos to the money men here. I’m just surprised Jeter wanted this, at this point the Jeter “brand” is taking a hit being associated with the Marlins. He always said he wanted to be an owner tho I guess, and no chance it was going to be the yank$ |
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Post by Rangers GM (Tony) on Dec 9, 2017 13:34:57 GMT -5
Damn I feel like this year's RFA contracts are super low. Weird
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 9, 2017 13:43:01 GMT -5
Absolutely. Acquiring Stanton may be highly questionable. He is a box office draw, yes, but his on the filed value is not certain/guaranteed, nor is it clear he is going to be worth the $$ involved long-term. Very few on long contracts are. Our point was simply that The Marlins inherited the problem; they did not create it.
The deal cost the Marlins $30M instead of $295M. They get Guzman, (nice spec) and Castro (cheap enough MLB replacement for Gordon) and some kid named Devers. That is way better than dragging things out for who knows how long, at a high financial cost to the Miami franchise and no guarantee Stanton would veer agree to a trade except to LAD and NYY, and he'd be playing with a team that likely trades away all or many of its better (pricey) players.
Our opinion on this has nothing to do with favorite team bullshit. Standing firm , hanging on to Stanton and seeing who blinked first was never an alternative for Miami -- except maybe in Anthony's mind.
Marlins did the best they could under difficult circumstances. Deal done. Move on.
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