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Post by z - Tim on Dec 7, 2017 6:48:40 GMT -5
Maybe he was willing to consider east coast teams, they just had a higher bar...which none of them cleared. It’s not like the Cubs are on the west coast. It’s very clear west coast teams had priority, but that doesn’t mean east coast teams had NO chance. People already knew before it started it was highly likely he preferred the west coast. At worst here, Ohtani gave them the courtesy of allowing all teams to get a first crack, the execs whining about that need a gut check.
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 7:33:31 GMT -5
Well, your point is semi-valid. If his team of advisors (and Ohtani, himself) knew from the get go they were not going to take those teams seriously, they could very well have made that clear, at least privately. Appears not to have been the case, hence the "whining," as you call it. At best it seems disingenuous -- a sort of negotiating in bad faith.
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Post by Brewers GM (Brad) on Dec 7, 2017 7:50:04 GMT -5
At best it seems disingenuous -- a sort of negotiating in bad faith. So, giving the owners a taste of their own medicine then? Ohtani made all those poor, poor GMs order their subs to put together proposals? What a monster! If anything, he did everyone a favor by letting them off the hook so quickly. I mean, he is offering his services for next to nothing to owners who collectively stand to benefit from his exploitation. Ohtani, to a degree unheard of these days, is motivated by being a baseball player, not a businessman. He shouldn't be derided for the process he chooses n making a decision that harkens to all that is best about the game, rather than the greed and "business" that ALL owners and front offices have as their number one priority. |
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 7:54:12 GMT -5
Yeah, we can agree it's nice that he is not prioritizing $$, but that wasn't what our post was about.
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 8:02:03 GMT -5
We have a better discussion question than whether or not Ohtani was disingenuous.
If the LA Dodgers end up with both Shohei Ohtani and Giancarlos Stanton, would people demand they "break up the Dodgers?"
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Post by z - Tim on Dec 7, 2017 8:03:17 GMT -5
bad faith? thats utterly ridiculous. he asked for proposals thats all. its only bad faith if there was ZERO chance he would go east coast. we have NO reason to make that assumption. just because he selected no east coast teams doesnt mean he didnt consider it. all we can assume is east coast teams had a far higher hill to climb, no real news flash there. if he just put all the east coast proposals in the bin before reading them, fine, but we dont know that or have any evidence of that. all we have is some teams that lost out on ohtani and want to complain. as ben said, would it really be better to get no chance? without more info, this is just sour grapes from the losers.
in actuality tho, this process was handled ny ohtani’s us agent not him and likely the time putting together these packages was mostly assistants not the GM. the agent probably felt obliged to ask all teams to do his due diligence for his client which is fair and the GMs that felt they were unliekly to win still felt like itd be remiss not to put forward at least sthg, so they tasked some assistants to do it. the unfortunate part of the timing is that whole posting stuff was resolved right before thanksgiving so the memo from the agent to teams went out the day after thanksgiving, so there were probably some assistants that had weekend after thanksgiving shot. and its likely thats what the complaints come from, not GMs so much as some assistants who lost the weekend after thanksgiving for a wild goose chase. but the timing there isnt the agents fault, mlb resolved this just before thanksgiving, so thats on mlb. and its hard for a GM to tell his owner that his team didnt even submit a proposal, so even the GMs that knew they had little chance still tasked some assistants to lose their weekend. id like to think more of those east coast GMs would have the fortitude to see the writng on the wall and not waste the time/holiday of their subordinates, but thats just human nature. this was surely a clusterfuck for some assts in front offices but its hardly fair to put that on ohtani or his agent, hes a FA that gave all teams a chance to submit initial proposals and we knew going in japanese players tend to prefer the west coast, no proposal from east coast teams got him over that preference. plus, given that the cubs/rangers made the cut shows he did consider teams outside west coast. some assistants had their time wasted by their GMs, thats not on the player, at least not with the info we have.
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Post by Brewers GM (Brad) on Dec 7, 2017 8:06:17 GMT -5
Your post agreed with Rosenthal's reporting that owners, especially of East Coast teams (we all know this is coming from Cashman, right?), got their undies in a bunch over Ohtani's process. The appropriate response to wankers when they are complaining about being treated unfairly, is to remember that they are wankers and point out their hypocrisy. Not to quote their "alleged" frustration as if it's valid.
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Post by z - Gaz on Dec 7, 2017 8:11:56 GMT -5
I'd have loved him to come to Boston, it was always a long shot though as it was always going to be tough to sway him from being in the west. However, I'd be really annoyed if the Red Sox hadn't even attempted to sway his decision or if Ohtani has said he didn't want to give any west coast teams a shot. Everyone was given a chance and had to make the most of that chance.
I just wish I had a chance to own him somewhere.
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Post by z - Gaz on Dec 7, 2017 8:14:14 GMT -5
The appropriate response to wankers when they are complaining about being treated unfairly, is to remember that they are wankers and point out their hypocrisy.
Ha ha. Said like a true Brit.
Have you been reading my posts about Theresa May on another forum?
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 7, 2017 9:56:11 GMT -5
Honestly...what's the difference between a FA coming out and stating...I'm open for bidding (even though the FA likely knows where he wants to go, or would go). And one by one teams start piecing together their pitch, their offer letters and with a simple text or phone call the FA says, "No thanks. Not interested."
Regardless, Ohtani is going to do what's best for him. Not what's best for the large market Yankees, or Dodgers, or Cubs or Red Sox. Those teams are used to getting whomever they want. I'm not sorry they didn't get what they wanted this time. Yankees especially, are used to throwing the most resources possible at a player and crossing their fingers the money talks. This time, money wasn't the object. It was simply...baseball.
Oh...and there's this. NY Daily News, front page cover the day after Ohtani said he wasn't interested in the Yankees read..."What a Chicken. Japan star snubs Yanks, fears big city." It took a whole day, for the 23 year old from another country to see some Yankee flavor. Pretty pathetic.
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 10:14:29 GMT -5
Not sure you are living in 2017, Anthony. It has been quite a while since the New York club has thrown its wallet around and gotten whatever it wants. heh
Maybe you're thinking of the Dodgers?
Fortunately, we have no control over what the New York papers think or print. But the Daily News is long famous for sensationalist headlines. Kind of like a British tabloid -- you know tedious drivel.
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Post by Brewers GM (Brad) on Dec 7, 2017 10:20:58 GMT -5
For real, Anthony. It's like you're living in 2015 or something. It's been two, almost three years since then! Oh wait, how much did they spend on Chapman last year?
Seriously, the Yankees didn't spend money for one season. Even then they still managed to trade for more payroll.
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Post by Angels GM (Scott) on Dec 7, 2017 10:33:21 GMT -5
The best part of this process is the Yankees, fans, and media exposing themselves for the entitled classless whiny B's they are. New York isn't the capital of the universe
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 10:35:18 GMT -5
Almost every rule and player movement procedure is calculated to slow down the mega clubs from steamrolling those clubs whose owners are only filthy rich rather than mega rich. International spending limits, extra competition picks, the draft itself. Still, clubs like Boston and Atlanta, the Los Angeles Dodgers, with their endless stream of cash, TV contracts no longer worth mere millions any more but billions -- all manage to get around the rules governing these things.
Singling out The New Yorks for inappropriate spending is really silly, antiquated, passe -- tedious drivel.
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Post by z - Gaz on Dec 7, 2017 10:35:26 GMT -5
But, but, but we haven't spent money for 12 months.
We'll see how that goes when Harper comes on the market next year.
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Post by Brewers GM (Brad) on Dec 7, 2017 10:45:45 GMT -5
"Almost every rule and player movement procedure is calculated to siphon more and more money to club owners, whether those clubs ... owners are only filthy rich rather than mega rich."
There, I fixed it for you. Seriously, competitive balance rules are first and foremost about how to extract profits, secondly about actual competitive balance. Big market teams want spending caps as well, means they rake more in...
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 7, 2017 10:55:56 GMT -5
Not sure you are living in 2017, Anthony. It has been quite a while since the New York club has thrown its wallet around and gotten whatever it wants. heh Maybe you're thinking of the Dodgers? Fortunately, we have no control over what the New York papers think or print. But the Daily News is long famous for sensationalist headlines. Kind of like a British tabloid -- you know tedious drivel. I'm not saying you agree w/ their sentiment. But newspapers like the Daily News fuel a large part of that fanbase, whether you want to believe it or not. A big part of that market, and what makes it so unique is because the very reason it thrives, is because it IS a sensationalist market. And the Yankees spent a whole 2 years, not blowing their wad on past their prime FA's. Congrats to them I guess? As for this "rebuild" it's simply not true. Most of those prospects were traded for just 2 years ago, and most either elite or near ML Ready. It wasn't this, 5 year Yankees rebuild. They built their farm on the backs of the Andrew Miller and Aroldis Chapman trades. Alas, lets not forget why the Yankees haven't spent much money the last 2 years in FA, its because they already spent it all on bad contracts. They still had the 2nd highest payroll in baseball in large part because they were still paying Alex Rodriguez $21M a year to sit on the set of Fox. Sabathia - $25M Tanaka - $22M Ellsbury - $21M Chapman - $15M Headley - $14M Holliday - $13M Gardner - $12.5M McCann (to play for Houston) - $5.5M Outside of Tanaka, there's not a single player on that list that can be moved for anything more than a sack of potatoes. |
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 12:08:30 GMT -5
Tanaka signed in 2014. Ellsbury's bad contract was signed in 2013. Sabathia was on the last year of a long back-loaded contract he signed in 2008. heh
Not sure your point in posting those contracts. Are you saying only New York has bad contracts on their books? Or that Yankees contracts are the largest n baseball? Or what? Gardner's was a particularly good contract -- terrific player, probably getting below what he should have. Only Chapman's would be considered high -- NY signed him with the idea they would compete for the title, much as Cubs did last year and Cleveland did with Andrew Miller. Holliday signed a one-year place-holder. Think Headley has been a round a handful of years now (didn't bother to check). McCann was dealt for a couple of pretty good specs -- unsure why you mentioned him.
Boston, thinking they had a chance to win, traded for David Price, who makes $30-$34M per through 2022, plus Handley Ramirez and Rick Porcello, both of whom make over $20M per and are still paying the National Debt on Pablo Sandoval. The Miamis gave Stanton $325M. Kershaw gets $33M or so per on a multi-year $215M contract and pretty much signs whomever they want; Votto got some absurd amount for a long contract. Look through the Dodgers payroll and you'll see some very stiff contracts, which are pretty much chump change for the LA-LA boys whose TV deal runs into the billions. Good players get paid. Championships are won by good players. New York has won the most championships and it pay its players well; they expect to win championships. Bad players sometimes get paid too much -- just ask Boston. heh
Harper will no doubt get a bushel-full. Who knows what Machado will get. etc. Seattle signed Cano away from the Yanks for a mega $225 deal the Yankees refused to match.
Or maybe you are saying Yankees should have cooked the books, like Atlanta and Boston did?
What would you say if the Dodgers sign both Stanton and Ohtani?
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Post by Marlins GM (Anthony) on Dec 7, 2017 12:32:26 GMT -5
My point in posting the contracts was that the Yankees were not rebuilding, contrary to the false narrative that FO was trying to spin to their fanbase. They were trying to compete. They had the 2nd largest payroll in baseball. Last season, was the first time they really had to look in the mirror and say "Yeah, we're probably going to suck because of all these bad contracts". But, they hit lightning in a bottle w/ A. Judge and it completely flipped their narrative. You stated, that the Yankees hadn't spent any money the last couple years. Which...is partially true minus the fact they were SUPPOSED to be, and attempted to be competitive right now. You can't NOT count all the bad contracts already on the books. If the Yankees were really rebuilding, they would have dumped Sabathia, Ellsbury, Tanaka, Headley and they would have never signed Holliday or Chris Carter. And Remember, going in to that season, and in to that trade deadline the narrative was...If the Yankees get int he playoffs with Miller/Chapman/Betances look out. How soon we forget, the Yankees were never rebuilding. They capitalized on a market that was desperate for RP. As for the Dodgers...They have $50M coming off the books after 2018 in AGon, Kazmir and McCarthy. They could easily dump R. Hill's $16M as well if they wanted. That's $50M off the books after 2018 and nearly $70M if they move Hill. The Dodgers have one of the best young nucleus in baseball (right there w/ Houson imo) and the deepest pockets. Outside of Kershaw, who's the best SP of this generation, there's very little restricting them from getting whomever they want, whenever they want. And Harper will definitely get his bushel, from your Yankees  |
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Post by z - El Guapo - retired on Dec 7, 2017 13:02:26 GMT -5
Once again, it is unclear what your point is. The Yankees have as much or more coming off the books as the Dodgers, who have by far the deepest pockets in baseball. So why is one team's deep pockets okay and not the other's?
If the Yankees sign Harper after 2018, that's bad for baseball? If the Dodgers sign Stanton this winter, or Ohtani, or both, that's good for baseball? We don't quite get your point.
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